NFL OFFENSES EVOLVING...

GRIDIRONxGURU wrote:

lol @ that... i will be condescending to anyone who says they're a true fan and dont know JACK about the game... so i wont "power down" ... i was asked to educate... so... i will do that...

"E"

well...i am a "true" fan of football....just not as "TECHNICAL" about it as you seem to be. i am not that passionate about the "X's" and "O's" as you. that's cool though...to each his own. but, to me...you come across in a very arrogant and condescending manner about it. to educate is one thing (please do enlighten us)...but then...to constantly put down those whom you are trying to educate is another. i couldn't careless in all honesty. just stating my perception of the convos. other than that...i'll give you your props for the techincal bruh. you got it down pat. you need to go coach somewhere and get paid for your knowledge.

bro im not jealous... at all... i made my money... i played my time... i have no regrets...

and the point i was trying to make is this... NFL started out... on teachers salaries... nothing more...

the fans have turned it in to what it is... and they influence coaching changes... front offices issues.. player changes... why int he WORLD do you think FREE AGENT WAS CREATED!!!????

b/c of salary caps... b/c its was getting out of hand... b/c the fans drive the game... and YEAH... if i buy a movie ticket... to see tom cruise... i just paid him a very small portion of his salary... but maybe you dont understand royalties...

LOOK... GET BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POINT... and that is...

IF YOU DONT KNOW X's AND O'S... DONT OPEN YOUR MOUTH ABOUT COLLEGE OFFENSES OR SAY ANYTHING NEGATIVELY ABOUT OFFENSES OUTSIDE OF THE NFL...

my dad always told me...

its better to keep your mouth shut and let people wonder... than to open it and remove all doubt...

and QUITE A FEW people have done this already dealing with football talk on this site... just trying to bring to light that there are MAJOR misunderstandings about offenses and athletes and what works in the NFL... and i didnt start this whole fiasco... this is just my open response to some criticism ive taken for my views and teachings that i have on offenses and the NFL...

"E"

Let me give you a lil of my background bro. I played High School football and D-2 football. I played at Blue Springs High School with Ledell Betts and Brandon Lloyd. Somehow we didn't we win the state championship. Every year their one of the top programs in the state of MO. Over Labor Day weekend their game was televised on ESPN. I also played D-2 football at CMSU. Two year starter but played a lot as a sophmore. So I do have X's and O's knowledge.

But here is the thing man You need to take your Dad's advice" its better to keep your mouth shut and let people wonder... than to open it and remove all doubt..."

Guru "NFL started out... on teachers salaries... nothing more..."

Guess what you are correct! When the NFL first started players didn't make a lot of money. You want to know why? There was no demand for the product. No one watched football. So salaries were low because not alot of money was made. But Baseball at the time was the nations most popular sport. Babe Ruth was a millionaire. Good baseball players made really good money because the demand was so high. That is the way a free market society works Bro. You do not get to dictate how much someone makes. The market dictates it.


But here is the thing Bro you have the power to lower the salaries of Pro athletes. I bet you didn't even realize it. STOP watching and going to games! It is really that simple. If you get all the idiots like yourself who feel that they make to much money to stop watching and going to games the revenues that teams make shrinks and inturn the salaries of the players goes down. It is really that simple.

There is more to life than X's and O's bro. I suggest you read a couple books on the free market sytem and how it works. Because your communists views are very ignorant. I have an idea since you are always telling people to educate themselves on x's and o's. Why don't you take some time and educate yourself on the different market systems and how they work. It would definitely help you become more well rounded. That way me and you can have a more intelligent conversation about this.

I just have to say I find it very interesting that this guy who is a coach and hopefully college educated doesn't understand the basic philosophy of a free market system. I'm curious as to what he coaches. It has to be pop warner. Because if its college or higher I would hope that he would understand that he has specific skill set that not alot of other people have and the better he gets at his job the more opportunities he will have to advance up the ladder and make more money and eventually someday land a gig in the NFL. But maybe thats not his dream. Maybe he just wants to continue to coach pop warner.

jwhite wrote:

Let me give you a lil of my background bro. I played High School football and D-2 football. I played at Blue Springs High School with Ledell Betts and Brandon Lloyd. Somehow we didn't we win the state championship. Every year their one of the top programs in the state of MO. Over Labor Day weekend their game was televised on ESPN. I also played D-2 football at CMSU. Two year starter but played a lot as a sophmore. So I do have X's and O's knowledge.

But here is the thing man You need to take your Dad's advice" its better to keep your mouth shut and let people wonder... than to open it and remove all doubt..."

Guru "NFL started out... on teachers salaries... nothing more..."

Guess what you are correct! When the NFL first started players didn't make a lot of money. You want to know why? There was no demand for the product. No one watched football. So salaries were low because not alot of money was made. But Baseball at the time was the nations most popular sport. Babe Ruth was a millionaire. Good baseball players made really good money because the demand was so high. That is the way a free market society works Bro. You do not get to dictate how much someone makes. The market dictates it.


But here is the thing Bro you have the power to lower the salaries of Pro athletes. I bet you didn't even realize it. STOP watching and going to games! It is really that simple. If you get all the idiots like yourself who feel that they make to much money to stop watching and going to games the revenues that teams make shrinks and inturn the salaries of the players goes down. It is really that simple.

There is more to life than X's and O's bro. I suggest you read a couple books on the free market sytem and how it works. Because your communists views are very ignorant. I have an idea since you are always telling people to educate themselves on x's and o's. Why don't you take some time and educate yourself on the different market systems and how they work. It would definitely help you become more well rounded. That way me and you can have a more intelligent conversation about this.

I just have to say I find it very interesting that this guy who is a coach and hopefully college educated doesn't understand the basic philosophy of a free market system. I'm curious as to what he coaches. It has to be pop warner. Because if its college or higher I would hope that he would understand that he has specific skill set that not alot of other people have and the better he gets at his job the more opportunities he will have to advance up the ladder and make more money and eventually someday land a gig in the NFL. But maybe thats not his dream. Maybe he just wants to continue to coach pop warner.

congrats on your D2 career... but i played D1AA in the SoCon... played 1 year AFL... 1 year in NFLE... and 2 seasons in NIFL... and now scout for several organizations that deal with Euo/Arena... so please get off your high horse... not once did i throw around my resume to make myself feel like i knew something...

so when you want to stop talking about your "D2" career... we can talk X's and O's and see how much you do know...

look... im nice to everyone but when it comes to football... but if you keep calling me bro... and calling me an idiot... i will embarass you and your little "D2" career... REALLY REALLY REALLY bad...

im serious...

"E"

Guru: "but if you keep calling me bro... and calling me an idiot... i will embarass you and your little "D2" career... REALLY REALLY REALLY bad...

im serious..."


LMAO.. You are a frickin idiot. Man I'm not braggin on myself I'm just letting you know that you might be able to talk down to some the younger guys on this site. But I do have experience in what you are talkin about. Anyone who played past high school should be proud what they accomplished. It doesn't matter whether it is D-1, D-2, D-3, NAIA, or Jr. College it is a great accomplishment. So go ahead with your unintelligent a$$ and embarrass me. I got to hear this. Your not gonna hurt my feelings one bit. So don't be scared embarass my little D-2 career you idiot.



Guru: "I played 1 year AFL... 1 year in NFLE... and 2 seasons in NIFL. I made my money"


You make it sound like you made a quite of bit of money playing in these minor football leagues. You do realize that all 3 of these leagues put together bring in less than 1% of the revenue that the NFL makes. So if the NFL players deserve teacher salaries would you have been cool with playing in these leagues for minimum wage? Or do you think your salary should have been the same as a teachers also. That way you and Peyton Manning would have the same income. You have heard of the NFLPA and what they do right? You know there asking for a bigger cut of the revenue pie when the contract comes up. If you would have been fortunate enough to make it in the NFL would have gone against NFLPA and said your salaries should have been drastically reduced. How can this idiot have been right there in the mix of the economics of football and not understand a d@mn thing. Didn't your agent explain anything to you.


You want to talk X's and O's. Let's talk X's and O's

You claim that college offenses like the spread can be used as a teams base offense in the NFL and be successful. Man there is not a chance in hell. There are 2 main reasons:

1. The defenses in the NFL are just too damn fast. The pressure your able to get from the Dline and the speed at D-back is just too great. Chase Daniel at Mizzou is able to sit back in the pocket with 5 wrs running patterns and have all day to throw. You won't get that kind of time in the NFL.

2. The risk/reward. This type of offense puts the offense at a greater probability of turning the ball over. The team with the least amount of turnovers wins the majority of NFL games.

The west coast offence is a great NFL system because of its efficiency and that is why so many teams use it. You always see west coast offenses with high completion % and low turnovers and teams are still able to move the ball in an effective way.

If you remember there was a great college coach who had an ego about the size of yours and thought he knew everything about football just like you do. His name was Steve Spurrier. He came to the Redskins with his fun gun offense which is a spread offense with 4 or 5 wrs running routes every single pass play. Everyone told him there was no way in hell his offense would work at the NFL level. But like you he was dumb and stubborn and was out to prove everyone wrong. Guess what it blew up in his face. He damn near got his QB killed and had to scrap his fun gun offense. Let's just say I don' think you are going to be seeing that experiment again any time soon.

But since you are so convinced that it would so successful in NFL when is it going to happen? Are we going to be seeing it ran by 10 teams next year, 5 yrs from now, 10 yrs from now. When will the spread offense take over the NFL idiot?

The point is it will never over take the west coast offense in NFL. And as someone who is a coach or a scout or whatever you do you should frickin know that.


For someone who is right there in the mix of what is going on in the NFL how is the idiot so dumb when it comes to understanding the economics and offensive schemes that can be used in the NFL.


By the way when are you going to answer the following question. "ESPECIALLY when they (especially the young crowd of fans) have major major misunderstood preconceptions of the game and how it COULD be... "
I was just wondering. If the game could be better on teachers salaries I would just like to how.

Man I feel sorry for you. I will say you do have a lot knowledege about football but the way you talk down to people because they have not experienced the same things as you is a frickin shame. I would not have gone at you like this but when someone is going around bullying other people because of the knowledge they think they have it is just not right. It's good to argue and discuss things but remember there is always someone out there that knows a little more than you do.

#1... offense is just as fast as defense... and... whats the difference in WCO short high % completions... and the spread...???

#2... everyone laughed at mouse davis... bill walsh... but hey... it stuck long enough to catch on and work...

ill continue this later... youre not worth my time right now...

::EDIT::

ok ill continue... you mention the "speed off the end"... but obviously you failed to read the whole part i wrote about the LINE splits in TRUE spread offenses... DE's can no longer line up in 3 tech's and make it a track meet off a swim move... they are then forced to play more of a loose 2 tech and then have to commit to a gap...

but obviously you just want to spew off about how im an "idiot" but ive yet to hear you say ANYTHING that proves your point about offenses not working... you just mouth off like a punk kid... about my comments on salaries...

and by the way... i didnt make all that much money... and everyone who has asked me... i never pretend like i made a ton... but i did make enough to open 3 businesses... buy a house... own both of my cars... and pretty much set for whatever i want to do... it wasnt about the money with me... it was about getting a head start... my degree is actually in teaching... with a minor in physical sciences... so that if i ever get my masters in another 3 semesters... i could go coach college ball... so... since you want to knock on my career... please tell us about your career after college ball...???

anytime you want to debate in chatbox... id be happy to meet ya there... then we could relaly talk X's and O's...

"E"

JWhite.... I sincerely hope you're not trying to justify the amount of money these players get paid.... ?

GURU:and by the way... i didnt make all that much money... and everyone who has asked me... i never pretend like i made a ton... but i did make enough to open 3 businesses... buy a house... own both of my cars... and pretty much set for whatever i want to do... it wasnt about the money with me... it was about getting a head start... my degree is actually in teaching... with a minor in physical sciences... so that if i ever get my masters in another 3 semesters... i could go coach college ball... so... since you want to knock on my career... please tell us about your career after college ball...???



That is truly awesome bro. Good luck on getting your masters that will definitely help you out especially in the teaching field. I was a loan officer than a sales manager at Indymac Bank regional office here in Kansas City MO. I'm sure you guys heard about them in the news. I currently work for a company selling advertising. I apologize for any knock I may have said about your career. I do believe you have alot football knowledge I just didn't appreciate the way you attacked some of the younger guys on here about there lack of knowledge.


GURU offense is just as fast as defense

When I say the speed of the D. It is in relation to how the field is shrunk because of their speed. In the 90's the run and shoot had some limited success with the Oilers, Falcons, and Lions. It helped that linebackers were 260 lbs and built to stop the run. Now LBs are 230 lbs and built to stop the pass. It's funny 10 years ago in madden most LBs speed were in the 70's if you had a LB with 80 speed he was considered fast. Now if you have an LB below 80 you don't even want him on the field. For all the flaws that madden has had that is one were they have definitely followed the trends the correct way.


Guru everyone laughed at mouse davis... bill walsh

Well Bill Walsh was an assistant coach under Paul Brown. Paul Brown is considered one the greatest offensive minds of all time if not the greatest. Bill Walsh got his WCO concepts from Paul Brown. So I doubt people were laughing at Bill Walsh. The run and shoot in the NFL really never had that much success. The lions and the falcons never won a playoff game. The Oilers had one of the greatest teams of all time. I think they ended up with like 12 pro bowlers but they lost to the Bills in that miracle come back. So I wouldn't exactly call that a success.

Like I said man if it is a system that can be successful it will definitely show up in NFL. You have some great spread QB's coming out the next few years so we will see if it catches on..



Eazy JWhite.... I sincerely hope you're not trying to justify the amount of money these players get paid....

There is nothing for me to justify. I believe in the free market system that US is currently under. I think it is the greatest economic system that the world has ever seen. The owners make millions. Corporations pay millions to advertise then they in turn make billions. When the Superbowl comes around the whole country shuts down to watch. Large corporations pay 5 million for a 30 sec ad during the Superbowl. And trust me they are making that back and then some. So for all these entities to benefit and then the athletes get nothing is ludicrus. What economic system would you prefer that america adopted. The Communists system or the Eazy/Guru system where you guys arbitrarily assign salaries to everyone and have no rhyme or reason for it. I think I'll stick with our current system.


In 1987 the the NFL went on strike. The owners said salaries are too high and the players wanted more money. So the players go on strike. The owners say go we don't need you. Anyone can get out on the field and the fans will still come. Guess what the fans didn't come. No one wanted to see Joe Six Pack throw the football. They wanted to see Joe Montana. Before the season ended the contract was resolved and the players got everything they wanted.

You and Guru say they deserve teachers salaries but have not told me why they deserve that. You have not even told me how you even came up with the teacher salary figure. Why not just pay them minimum wage.

You guys have also not explained why the NFL would be better on teachers salaries. I would defintiely like to hear why the NFL would be a better product on teacher salaries.

And again I have to ask you Is Tom Cruise over paid when he makes 25 million per movie? Or should the Studio get all the money and he just receive a teachers wage. Tom Cruise is what draws people to see a movie just like Payton Manning is what draws fans in to watch. There is no difference between them they are both entertainers. Unfortunately a large % of Americans income is used for the purposes of entertainment and that is how they are able to make the money they make.

yes... but bill walsh and mouse davis were most noted for THEIR developments of the WCO and RNS... with mouse davis being credited as the single revolutionary of the offense...

and free trade doesnt make the game better... and doesnt help... it just creates T.O.'s and... any other crybaby is who really too scared to perform when it comes down to it...

and i know what youre saying with the "speed" shrinking the field... but... still that doesnt work if you FORCE ASSIGNMENT football on defense...

people cant flow if they HAVE to respect assignments every play... and... this can be accomplished...

"E"

YES TOM CRUISE IS OVER PAID!! are you fuckin nuts... that guy is an idiot and he walks around oblivious to the world around him while people die hopeless and hungry.

don't say im a communist... im a humanitarian. and with as much as money means to this society... no one should get paid that much money.

get real.

So how would I incorporate assignment football into madden?

well thats the problem... its hard to force people into maintaining assignments with the offenses that are on madden... its alot easier to do while playing NCAA b/c of the crazy formations with jet motions and options off of them... it forces users to user control LB's alot more... and respect your run first...

on madden... if you hang 3 deep to stop the pass... you can pretty much wrap up a game vs anyone... so... give me some time in the playbooks... inside practice mode and scrimmaging some people here... and i will get back to you on it... i promise...

"E"

I honestly agree with 90% of what White said.

Alright cool...

Yeah I know what you're sayin about doing it in NCAA, my friend was kind of forcing me to use OLB's to stop his option attack...

Mcnair2Wycheck wrote:

I honestly agree with 90% of what White said.

and thats cool... its a forum... as long as you dont call me an idiot...

i dont treat people like their idiots... somethings may sound condescending... but its not... i just talk technical... and some may not understand... but i will explain in detail everything i talk about... unlike others out there...

"E"

The part I disagreed with was the way he presented it with the personal attacks and stuff, but I mostly agreed with the content of his argument. I do respect people's opinions, but I tend to feel the same way that White does on this subject.

The only reason I attacked Guru like I did is because of the following statements he made:

GURU: "but... you think the wildcat and the pistol are "trick plays"
that shows you are football IGNORANT...
next... to discuss this... (please know your stuff)"

GURU "real... weve already established that youre ignorant in the game of football... sorry bro... but youre excluded from this conversation... "

GURU "seriously... is there ANYONE... ANYONE at all... that plays MADDEN know anything about football...????????
im kind of disappointed honestly at the lack of football sense in this place... "


After reading these comments I was pissed. I basically felt like he was bullying the younger guys on this site because they don't have the same experience or knowledge as him. So I decided to go after him. Like I said before he has a lot of football knowledge there is no doubt about that. But that was no way to talk to someone who bascially has a lot less life experience and knowledge. So I was basically I guess trying to stick up for them like a big brother would.

I don't have a big brother...

real knows i was giving him a hard time... b/c weve had this conversation a bunch...

so REALLY it seems like from now on... you should know your junk before you start name bombing...

and my remarks you quoted are remarks that ive already made openly... its just the first time you have read them b/c you arent ever in chatbox...

but anyways... my offer still stands... for a public discussion in chat about the X's and O's of why or why not some of the new offenses will work...

and just to clarify it... the "Spread Coast" and "Spread Option" and the new "Fast Break Offense" are not the run n shoot or WCO of traditional... so if you accept... study up... b/c your previous references were off the mark of my ORIGINAL post...

"E"

all the pistol is is a hybrid shotgun.

it helps QB to see the D and make reads if they are smaller, because small QBs have trouble seeing over the line.

I.E. Drew Brees he passes primarily outta shotgun. The saints blocking schemes make it so he can get gaps between the linemen so he can see down field. He is also able to see what the D is doing more from the gun. Finally it also buys Brees more time to find the WR he wants.

The same things follow for the pistol teams, but pistol is easier to run out of also sets up the QB to run. That is why cheifs use it thigpin can run the ball. LJ can run. And it buys thig more time to pass and makes it easier to see over the linemen.

pistol is not a trick play it is just another formation

The option will never work in NFL ever. QB takes off running and if he does not get pitched he will get hurt. option is far to risky to QB unless u bring in someone to specifically run the option.


also yes people who do play madden do know stuff.

OGiant23 wrote:

all the pistol is is a hybrid shotgun.

it helps QB to see the D and make reads if they are smaller, because small QBs have trouble seeing over the line.

I.E. Drew Brees he passes primarily outta shotgun. The saints blocking schemes make it so he can get gaps between the linemen so he can see down field. He is also able to see what the D is doing more from the gun. Finally it also buys Brees more time to find the WR he wants.

The same things follow for the pistol teams, but pistol is easier to run out of also sets up the QB to run. That is why cheifs use it thigpin can run the ball. LJ can run. And it buys thig more time to pass and makes it easier to see over the linemen.

pistol is not a trick play it is just another formation

The option will never work in NFL ever. QB takes off running and if he does not get pitched he will get hurt. option is far to risky to QB unless u bring in someone to specifically run the option.


also yes people who do play madden do know stuff.

but if you really knew... then you would know that pistol is not a hybrid of the gun... it comes from the single wing... and single wing was around before the standard shotgun of today... and pistol is NOT a formation... its an alignment... you can still run any set of I... Split Back... whatever... and be in and gun... its a QB alignment... NOT A FORMATION... and the PISTOL definitely could work in the NFL... and NO its not for smaller QB's... the "MODERN" innovator of the current day pistol CHRIS AULT... designed it for his QB who is... 6' 6" and 215 pounds... search up Colin Kaepernick...

this is exatly what im saying... and the very reason i started this thread... there are SOOOOO MANY misconceptions about some of these "new" approaches to offense... that people write them off not even knowing what they really are...

"E"