NFL OFFENSES EVOLVING...

Ok... so... ive had some good debates... and then ive just plain out argued or ignored some uninformed people on this site about NFL offenses being cookie cutter...

BORING... absolutely run of the mill... washed out hand-me-down versions of the WCO...

so... i know that some teams "tried" to run the "WILDCAT" offense in the NFL and it worked but b/c obvious that it was being run at certain times for certain plays and was useless b/c it wasnt implemented very well...

BUT... when one of my fellow coaches passed this write up along i was reminded of some of my debates here in the chatbox...

read this article but you have to scroll down and read the Kansas City Chiefs part...

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/cover-3/2008/cover-3-kids-are-alright

looks like some more stabs at change and evolving is coming along...

NOW... lets see how long before un(football)educated armchair QB's who watch too much ESPN... ruin it with their overwhelming negative response because they will shake their head and say "that may work in college... but that wont work in the NFL"

but i say... learn X's and O's and see that these systems will work at any level...

"E"

lol im not gonna say it wont work in the NFL level but new things in the NFL always work for a couple weeks or maybe that year and after that year it just doesnt work anymore... plays,players,trick plays it all gets gameplanned for really quick and other teams just copy whoever had success..........the ravens stopped the wildcat by simply blitzing

but... you think the wildcat and the pistol are "trick plays"

that shows you are football IGNORANT...

next... to discuss this... (please know your stuff)

"E"

Weird... I was just running pistol with oregon on NCAA...

But anyways, a lot of bad teams have had success doing some crazy things but it only lasts a few weeks before every team in the league does it... I'm not saying that every team will start using the pistol, or that it'll get stopped quickly, because this just looks like something that will help put Thigpen in position to make plays...

But I do think that pretty soon NFL coordinators will start thinking a bit more outside the box...

Fudopi wrote:

Weird... I was just running pistol with oregon on NCAA...

But anyways, a lot of bad teams have had success doing some crazy things but it only lasts a few weeks before every team in the league does it... I'm not saying that every team will start using the pistol, or that it'll get stopped quickly, because this just looks like something that will help put Thigpen in position to make plays...

But I do think that pretty soon NFL coordinators will start thinking a bit more outside the box...

that right there is a classic example... you hint of the idea that thinking outside the box will work... but that it would only last a few weeks...

the pistol... isnt really an offense... its an alignment... but... it opens a system up in ways that werent open before... by creating shotgun... but still having a down hill running game from the I... thus creating assignment football... and that is something that if you guys would learn about... even your madden play would be better... and you would understand where im coming from more...

"E"

Well teach us about it then...

i wasnt referring to wildcat as a trick play i was just saying in general... after the first season nothing of its kind is never really effective anymore

real... weve already established that youre ignorant in the game of football... sorry bro... but youre excluded from this conversation...

what you dont understand that... the "wildcat" stems from the single wing offense... that well... was around before your dad probably... lol

seriously... is there ANYONE... ANYONE at all... that plays MADDEN know anything about football...????????

im kind of disappointed honestly at the lack of football sense in this place...

"E"

I'd have more football sense if you taught me.

Obviously we know football, and you know more. If you want us to know as much as you explain it to us son.

Although I know a lot about the NFL, i'm pretty ignorant to the specific coaching aspects of it compared to you. What I could take from it though is that it would probably be a pretty high risk offense. Big plays but also lots of turnovers kind of like how the run & shoot used to be. Maybe not the kind of game a lot of offenses (Including teams built like Pittsburgh and Tennessee) would feel comfortable running considereing their Forte tends to be a more classic style of football year in and year out. It could work for some teams though. I read an article last year about some really obscure rule that allowed an HS offense to have more than 6 potential eligable receivers at once and it led them deep into the state playoffs. So IDK man, not claiming to know more than you but that's just my 2 cents.

well for starters... i would spend some time learning the evolution of offense and defense...

what we hear called "tricks" or "gimmicks" are really just old styles of offenses popping up in new formations...

its easy to say... NFL is the highest level so what they run is the best it gets...

but to say that... is SOOO DEAD WRONG...

NFL plays on leverage... and sometimes on assignment... but really the WCO(west coast offense) has turned the NFL into a game of biggest/fastest getting somewhere faster/take up space...

when really the best systems in football force assignment defense... where every plays isnt just matched up man to man... the offenses such as the new spread options that are sweeping the country... some of the new spread pistols... even forms of the old single wing and flexbone (Georgia Tech)... all forcing defenses to play assignment football and doing that for 60 minutes... well... someone is going to make a few mistakes... and the problem is... with a great system... you can dictate when those assignments will be blown...

start at the offensive line...

how many offensive lines in the NFL do you see use a 1 yard split?or 1 1/2 yard split...???

NONE... ever... why? b/c in the WCO it calls for 8-10 inch splits... what does this matter? well if you want to force assignment football you must start at the line... and with tighter splits on the offensive line the DL/LB's have less space that they are responsible for... gaps are easier to reach by stunting... zone blitzes become easier b/c DE's can easily cover in time for the outside blitz to get to the QB...

but by moving those splits out further the gap responsibilies become greater and it puts more stress on the defensive front to maintain their gap responsibility play in and play out... it also creates more time for the QB to read the outside blitz b/c the blitzer has, on average, another 5 yards to run to get to him just by using those wider splits... the quick tosses have to be respected more... and inside blitzes only cost you in the long run when you sacrifice containment on such a wide line...

this... is juts part of what i could write on the O-Line work being used in alot of these systems in college... but they are shunned b/c they dont fall into that mold that so many people think is "legit"...

by ignorance they mock the game they love... by calling its pastime a trick play... or a fluke... that will only be shut out in one season... these forms of football have been around for years and years and years... the "wildcat" that is supposed to be something snuffed out and long gone in a year... well it is a version of the single wing offense... and well thats been around since around 1907... invented by pop werner... spread offense started when notre dame expanded the single wing in early 40's and started to "flex" TE's to gain leverage... from there... it evolved...

so to call a "visit" to the past and using the roots of the game to create different looks/systems... a gimmick... is an insult to football and the game and fans abroad... and especially to coaches who study the game...

"E"

Mcnair2Wycheck wrote:

I read an article last year about some really obscure rule that allowed an HS offense to have more than 6 potential eligable receivers at once and it led them deep into the state playoffs. So IDK man, not claiming to know more than you but that's just my 2 cents.

yeah the HS federation and NCAA rules state that a player covered by another payer on the LINE (meaning someone inside of a WR) can not CATCH A FORWARD pass... but they can take a pitch from a QB and become a passer themselves...

this now places 4 linemen blocking... and 6 possible WR's since the QB is now available...

to run this... everyone must bs extremely spread out and clustered at the sidelines... so that the play can develop...

and yes... this DOES fall under the category of "TRICK PLAY" lol...

and if you want to see something REALLY funny... watch this... lol



"E"

Thats nuts. The D shouldve realized that tough, I mean you cant just do that once the ref sets the ball down.

that was the most rediculous thing ive seen lol funny as hell but yeah guru i think me and u where actually having this convo 1 day man..i undastand where u are coming from...the nfl needs an offensive make over and it start with things like the wildcat like the spread offense mizzou and florida run...teams, owners, and coaches are so stubborn to coach to there players ability and use them effectively...things as simple as the pistol as spread offense as the wild cat would brighten up the nfl bring more scoring more offense make the game more exciting...teams are playing old football and the college systems are out shining the nfl systems right now and it shouldnt be like that since college players go from this system to the old way and they cant do it caus altho those systems may seem complex they really arent and they are qb friendly.

money has become the issue... and thats what makes me sick about the NFL... that players would level themselves down to a one-dimensional player... just to make that contract... especially QB's...

if the NFL would just grasp some of these systems to use a QB as a TRUE threat for what its intended purposes are... then you would see some MAJOR changes in the thinking of the NFL...

QUARTERBACK has 2 different versions of origin...

1. Some say that it was the alignment of the position to take the snap in pre-"T" formation era... who was a quarter distance of the deepest man... (not my choice but some will say thats where it started from)

2. the term "QUARTER" BACK... stems from the performance of duties intended for the position...

1/4 RUNNER
1/4 PASSER
1/4 RECEIVER
1/4 BLOCKER

The intention of the position when it was created was to have a person that could excel in ALLLLLL areas of the offensive strike... (this is the history that i teach and stand by on the origin of the position)

what you see of QB's today is a glamourized 3/4 failure to the original concept of the position...

the defenses of the NFL have evolved... and really... with personnel packages... they are actually really different than their roots... and that is great... but even the 2 back systems of the NFL and mostly of the split back set of the WCO... has not strayed far from their roots... with the "PRO SET" being nothing more than the 2 back even in depth behind the GUARDS comign from the single wing alignment... all they have done is moved the QB under center... thus eliminating the threats that come with the original offense... and once you eliminate one of the threats from an offense it spoils it...

and im not saying that all NFL teams must go to a DUAL THREAT QB... there are tons of ways to evolve the passing game... like i mentioned some of the OL alignments... Mike Leach @ Texas Tech is infamous for having his offense look like a punt coverage team sometimes... having them so spread out... but it really slows down the rush... even though the pre-conceived notion would seem to suggest otherwise...

thats it for me today...

you guys have a merry CHRISTmas...

"E"

good post. you and i have talked about this before, and its interesting stuff

and you know how i feel about the money issue.... it's the absolute worst part of professional sports. i wish they got paid as much as teachers, because then (just like teachers) only the people that were dedicated to the game would play.

Eazy2Good wrote:

because then (just like teachers) only the people that were dedicated to the game would play.

exactly...

"E"

I have to disagree with that for multiple reasons.

Mcnair2Wycheck wrote:

I have to disagree with that for multiple reasons.

...and those reasons are?

Guru...you seemed to be wound up a little too tightly on this issue and....it's coming across very arrogantly in your attacks and criticisms of those who may not be as knowledgable as yourself in that area. power down son! it's gonna be alright bruh...i promise!

ketcham while they're hot wrote:

Mcnair2Wycheck wrote:

I have to disagree with that for multiple reasons.

...and those reasons are?

Because we live in a free market system here. With the amount of revenue that the NFL takes in, it would be downright unfair if the players who make the game what it is were not given a large cut of it. Overall that would only hurt the game's revenue. Also we would otentially be seeing great players leave the game simply because they were able to get a better job that game them 100K or 200K a year. I could get into this more if someone REALLY wants to argue but those are my basic points.

Militant X 1 wrote:

Guru...you seemed to be wound up a little too tightly on this issue and....it's coming across very arrogantly in your attacks and criticisms of those who may not be as knowledgable as yourself in that area. power down son! it's gonna be alright bruh...i promise!

lol @ that... i will be condescending to anyone who says they're a true fan and dont know JACK about the game... so i wont "power down" ... i was asked to educate... so... i will do that...

and as far as the free trade market... the whole thing doesnt matter... its all crap... fans supply the money... money drives the franchises... the franchises own the players... and the players are puppets... so in the end... the fans own the game... and thats retarded... ESPECIALLY when they (especially the young crowd of fans) have major major misunderstood preconceptions of the game and how it COULD be...

"E"

GRIDIRONxGURU wrote:

Mcnair2Wycheck wrote:

I read an article last year about some really obscure rule that allowed an HS offense to have more than 6 potential eligable receivers at once and it led them deep into the state playoffs. So IDK man, not claiming to know more than you but that's just my 2 cents.

yeah the HS federation and NCAA rules state that a player covered by another payer on the LINE (meaning someone inside of a WR) can not CATCH A FORWARD pass... but they can take a pitch from a QB and become a passer themselves...

this now places 4 linemen blocking... and 6 possible WR's since the QB is now available...

to run this... everyone must bs extremely spread out and clustered at the sidelines... so that the play can develop...

and yes... this DOES fall under the category of "TRICK PLAY" lol...

and if you want to see something REALLY funny... watch this... lol



"E"

No joke, my fifth grade team ran that...

We did this other thing once where we had 3 screens and a deep ball in one pretty much, we started off in the shotgun, with me playing guard(not my normal position, I was the smallest kid on the team haha). So we threw the first screen out the WR on the left, and just as he got tackled he threw it to a wide receiver on the other side of the O line, while we were all blocking...
Then we're still blocking and I just let go and ran five yards or so back and the 2nd WR tosses it to me and he went deep and I threw it...

Sounds long but it wasn't really, the whole play took probably 5 seconds till the ball got to me and then I just lobbed it up...

Guru and Eazy you both seem like really cool guys but you are way off base on this issue that football players need to be paid as much teachers. I don't know if its jealousy, envy or you guys are just haters.

GURU " fans supply the money... money drives the franchises... the franchises own the players... and the players are puppets... so in the end... the fans own the game"

Why Don't you just call the players slaves. The fans don't own sh!t. Do you own Tom Cruise when you buy a ticket to see his movie? Do you own Brittney Spears when you buy ticket to goto her concert? Should Tom Cruise and Brittney Spears only make as much as teachers also. I bet you say no.


Bro they're entertainers just like actors, singers, comedians, etc... There is no doubt that they deserve every penny they make if not more. Like Mcnair said this is a free market society not the Soviet Union. There is a limited supply of athletes at the elite level and high demand for people wanting to watch these athletes compete. So that inturn drives up their value.



Eazy "i wish they got paid as much as teachers, because then (just like teachers) only the people that were dedicated to the game would play."

There are football players that get paid as much as teachers its called NFL Europe, Arena football, and Canadian football. How enjoyable is that to watch. I bet you don't watch any of it. Even though if they are playing in these leagues they are truly dedicated to football.


GURU "ESPECIALLY when they (especially the young crowd of fans) have major major misunderstood preconceptions of the game and how it COULD be... "

Bro this made me laugh you are going to have to elaborate on "How the game could be." What you think that players are going to be better or work harder on a teachers salary. You have a misconception that athletes don't work hard. Man they are bustin their ass year round to stay in the best shape possible so that they can earn the money they make. Players don't just wake up and look like Shawn Merriman and weigh 270 lbs and run 4.4 40's. With so much money on the line the players have no choice but to bust their ass or they will get replaced. You think that on a teachers salary that players are going to be as dedicated in keeping their bodies in peak conditon and their game at the highest level. Hell NO!


No matter what you pay them the owners are still going to charge the same amount for tickets and the revenues from TV are going to be the same. So you can either give the athletes the money or pay them teachers salaries and let the owners pocket all that cash. This Eutopia that you guys want where athletes are paid teachers salaries and tickets prices drop to $5 is not going to happen. The Gladiator days of slaves in the the arena busting their ass for nothing so that fans can enjoy themselves ended a long time ago.


Bottom line is this you will not see sports at the highest level on teachers salaries. So this perception that you guys have that athletes are all of sudden going to be more dedicated and play better for less money is misguided. All its going to do is lower the supply of quality players willing to play which in turn lowers the quality of the game. So if you want to spend your Sundays watching the equivalent to NFL Europe keep hoping your theory pans out.

wow